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ExitCertified: All right, Hello everyone and welcome to today's webinar titled how to fail at cloud transformation, my name is Hillary and I will be your MC for this leverage.
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ExitCertified: For this webinar Thank you so much, everyone for joining the conversation before we get started let's cover some of the webinar functionalities first.
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ExitCertified: So during the webinar everyone's microphones will be muted, but we want this to be an open discussion so if you have any questions, please enter them into the Q amp a box or chat window at the bottom of your screen.
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ExitCertified: There will also be a dedicated Q amp a session after the presentation, so please stay tuned for that.
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ExitCertified: joining us as a panelist we have a very low can kruger Ken is a certified instructor at exit certified and has over 30 years of experience.
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ExitCertified: As a software developer project leader project manager scrum master instructor spending the mainframe client server web and cloud areas with this that can, please take it away.
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Ken Krueger: All right, thank you, Hillary well good morning everybody, my name is Ken krueger i'll.
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Ken Krueger: Be leading this session on how to fail at cloud transformation.
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Ken Krueger: So, Hillary has already given you a basic bio but just to add to it, I am a senior instructor.
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Ken Krueger: I spend most of my time teaching cloud topics nowadays mostly well exclusively aws but i'm familiar with the other clouds as well.
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Ken Krueger: When i'm not teaching Amazon web services, I still teach some Java spring framework and i'm doing some Cuban 80s training as well.
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Ken Krueger: And i've been in this business for about 30 years what I want to do today is, I want to put together a little presentation on how.
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Ken Krueger: A lot of people fail at cloud transformation and, of course, the reason you're attending is of course not so you can fail, but so that you can not fail.
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Ken Krueger: So there's actually quite a few articles on this subject, if you want, you can just quickly open a browser and do a quick Google search and you'll see.
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Ken Krueger: A number of people who will have articles that you can read on this topic, so what i'm presenting you isn't new, but what I want to do is something a little bit unique.
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Ken Krueger: You see, because at exit certified as an instructor I have a lot of different students, we all do, I noticed.
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Ken Krueger: Some other instructors from exit certified are on the call, can I saw you joining there so anyway, one of the things that we like to do at exit certifies we try to make our.
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Ken Krueger: Training events as interactive as possible, and so we like to encourage our students to talk and tell us about what they're doing.
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Ken Krueger: And sometimes folks really tell us some really interesting stories and so over time I have about I mean about 500 students, a year in this job.
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Ken Krueger: And over time i've noticed certain patterns that organizations fall into and the students who come into classes they're kind of suffering because of it.
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Ken Krueger: And a lot of times they'll hear some of the things that we're teaching and say yeah we can't do this because our organization is doing X.
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Ken Krueger: And so I thought about this and I just tried to put together a presentation kind of outlining some of the common patterns and ways that people actually.
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Ken Krueger: kind of grasp failure failure from the jaws of victory, as it were.
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Ken Krueger: Now i'm going to tell you some stories but i'm not going to i'm not going to tell you any names or individuals or companies and i'm not going to give you enough fat facts when I do this.
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Ken Krueger: To even give you enough information to guess, but everything i'm going to tell you is basically based on you know stories or or information that i've gotten from students over the years.
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Ken Krueger: And by the way, as you listen to this, you might have a story of your own that you would like me to know about so jot this email down really quick and send me an email my email is Ken krueger that's tr you E GR at tech data.com.
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Ken Krueger: Now, before I get into the actual reasons that that folks fail at cloud transformation, I want to give you an overall motivation here.
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Ken Krueger: And this motivational statement i'm about to give you actually comes from an aws document, called the cloud adoption framework.
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Ken Krueger: And it's a document that aws put together to try to help organizations adopt cloud the statement is basically that technological transformation enables process transformation enables organizational transformation which enables product or service transformation, in other words.
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Ken Krueger: The reason we're doing all of this technical work is not just because it's not just so we have an easier way to do the technical work.
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Ken Krueger: What we're trying to do is actually transform our processes, so we can transform our organization, so that we can actually have something positive to show for it.
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Ken Krueger: So we're not doing the technical we're not doing a technical transformation, just to achieve chief technical transformation okay we're trying to actually have a different organization because of it.
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Ken Krueger: Okay that's about transformation so first of all, the first way that people fail that cloud for information.
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Ken Krueger: Is this treating the cloud as a remote data Center now to be fair, we don't see this as much as we do.
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Ken Krueger: As much as we used to five years ago, when I would ask students what at the beginning of a class what they thought the cloud was.
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Ken Krueger: People would routinely say well it's just a remote data Center nowadays, I asked the same question, most people don't say that so most people have gotten beyond this.
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Ken Krueger: But for a while people really thought that the cloud was simply a different version of a remote data Center.
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Ken Krueger: No different than what we've used before, so our applications our organizational structure our business processes can remain unchanged, we are essentially going to take what we're doing now pick it up lifted and shifted over into the cloud environment now.
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Ken Krueger: A couple things about this school of thought here there's some things that we need to realize and there's some things that we need to do instead.
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Ken Krueger: So, first of all, when we talk about cloud computing cloud computing is not really about where something is done it's how we are consuming it resources.
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Ken Krueger: In fact, one of the latest trends in cloud that you see in aws and Microsoft and Google is they're actually pushing hardware into traditional data centers they're trying to get the processing back into data centers.
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Ken Krueger: Okay, but it's still cloud computing because the way we consume resources in is different, the cloud consumption model is completely different from what we're used to in on Prem and Colocation models we're not doing long term leases or purchases and capital expenditures anymore now.
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Ken Krueger: Earlier I use the term lift and shift.
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Ken Krueger: there's nothing listen to me carefully there's nothing wrong with doing a lift and shift of an application that you're working on right now picking it up, as is and plopping it over into the cloud.
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Ken Krueger: But we just need to understand that that limits your value proposition you're not going to get all of the cool benefits you've heard about with cloud computing if you're just lifting and shifting just doesn't work that way Okay, so instead.
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Ken Krueger: What we need to do is just kind of adapt our mindset, to the new model we have a new consumption model here.
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Ken Krueger: And there's nothing wrong with lift and shift just use it as the first phase of your journey, about two or three years ago, this was before Kovac I was.
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Ken Krueger: We exit certified we were doing a number of training courses for a company based on the west coast and they were in the middle of.
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Ken Krueger: Moving everything into Amazon web services.
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Ken Krueger: And I was out there a few times for some training events and the lead architect for their organization he came to me in the break and he said, do you mind if I do a little presentation.
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Ken Krueger: For 10 minutes, can I interrupt your class for 10 minutes to do this presentation, I just want to tell.
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Ken Krueger: Everyone on your class, you know what we're doing here and what our plan is so I said sure, and so he comes in and i'm sitting in the back of the.
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Ken Krueger: room just kind of listening and it's the most beautiful project plan i've ever heard.
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Ken Krueger: And I used to do, I used to do project management it's the most beautiful project plan i've ever heard, because it was so simple.
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Ken Krueger: And he basically was up there, he said folks our plan is basically two phases phase one.
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Ken Krueger: we're going to lift and shift everything that we've got right now into the aws cloud environment by the end of the year.
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Ken Krueger: So that we get out of our data Center agreement that's just phase one, but when we do it.
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Ken Krueger: We know that we're not going to be optimal, we know that we're not going to be achieving everything that we could be achieving and we know.
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Ken Krueger: That our our spin or total it span was probably going to be more than what we're doing right now, which leads us to phase two, which is going to be then we're going to go back and optimize everything.
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Ken Krueger: And I thought this is the most beautiful plan in the world, because everyone in the organization, even the janitor can understand that point it's just so simple and that's exactly what they implement and they achieved a lot of success okay.
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Ken Krueger: Alright, so the cloud is not just a remote data Center which brings us to number two.
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Ken Krueger: enjoy the cost savings now maybe a better title for this would be relax and enjoy the cost savings, so what happens to some organizations is this there'll be a pilot project.
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Ken Krueger: A crack team is basically designed to is basically assembled to migrate one low risk application into a cloud environment they are very successful at it, they do a presentation at an all hands meeting and they show how much money they saved and they're going to save over time.
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Ken Krueger: Everybody claps they get a plaque from the CIO or cto and we decided to keep doing the same thing, but the problem is the subsequent migrations are much more difficult Okay, and a case study of this is a company called hunger.
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Ken Krueger: If you've never heard of hunger, it simply means that you don't watch a lot of movies produced in India or music videos or things that come out of India.
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Ken Krueger: So this is a production company based in somewhere in India i'm actually not very sure this case study that i'm about to tell you, you can actually Google this and you can find this on the aws case studies site.
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Ken Krueger: Their first projects were very successful, but then they're following projects save less and less and less and their ongoing operations cost more and more and more.
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Ken Krueger: Until about three years into their transition they found that their aws bill was easily easily exceeding their previous it spend on their previous states.
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Ken Krueger: Not what we're supposed to have okay so there's a few things that we need to realize, in order to address this one, first we are in an on demand utilization environment.
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Ken Krueger: And this requires ongoing effort in order to manage it, if you pay for your own electric bill and your own water bill, you are going to manage your consumption differently than if all of this is built into the rent that you pay let's say.
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Ken Krueger: Next, in the cloud environment, we have to understand that resources are disposable at any time, I can use API calls to acquire all the resources that I need and when i'm done, I simply throw them out.
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Ken Krueger: So everything is disposable there are also different pricing models, I have long term pricing plans that I can engage into I have in.
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Ken Krueger: The case of aws I have reserved pricing, I have spot pricing that I can engage in when you hear about the people who are saving 80% off of their aws bill they're not taking the on demand rack price they're basically utilizing the different pricing models.
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Ken Krueger: Now there's another source of conflict here in the way that a lot of companies do their financial management for a lot of.
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Ken Krueger: Growth companies younger companies that need to impress their investors with how much they are growing and how much they are changing, one of the things that they.
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Ken Krueger: That the CEO or the CFO wants to do on an earnings call is they want to highlight their their ongoing investment in technology and how they're becoming more and more efficient over time.
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Ken Krueger: When you go into cloud computing you actually move in the opposite direction, and your operational expenses start to go up in your capital expenses expenditure start to go down that doesn't look good.
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Ken Krueger: to certain investors who are expecting something different, but then the cloud, an increase in op X does not indicate in inefficiency in fact it indicates the opposite.
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Ken Krueger: And a decrease in capex does not signal a loss of investment, a lack of investment in fact it's the opposite so sometimes we have a conflict between the way that the senior leadership wants the organization to look on the earnings call.
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Ken Krueger: Alright, so instead, we need to realize that we have to actively monitor and manage the costs okay we're in a new environment now where we have to manage everything that we do in the case of Hong gamma.
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Ken Krueger: They they talk to their aws technical account manager and they advise them to use one of the simplest services and all of Amazon web services is called trusted advisor.
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Ken Krueger: And all you do is click on the screen and what it does, is it it the screen just tells you everything that you're doing wrong, and it has all kinds of cost savings on it so using that they corrected some over provisioning of EC two instances they.
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Ken Krueger: got rid of old eat easy to and EBS environment so they didn't need anymore, this is important here, they came up with a process.
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Ken Krueger: i'm going to reprise the steam a little bit later they came up with a process to automate.
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Ken Krueger: retirement of old resources.
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Ken Krueger: So the problem that they ran into is they would do a project, and they have a bunch of resources, just for the development and testing effort and then, when something was in production, they didn't need that anymore, but they kept it around.
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Ken Krueger: They should have thrown it out, so they came up with an automated process to get get rid of that and, over time, they got a 90% reduction in the amount of backups that they were taking and they got their bill under control so good story, there is, as far as the op X and cab X is concerned.
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Ken Krueger: This is just something that has to be communicated clearly by your CFO when they're on the earnings call, they should say we're adopting cloud computing we're trying we're trying to get to a world where our optics is actually higher.
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Ken Krueger: Because we're trying to track our expenses very, very closely with our revenues.
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Ken Krueger: So those are a first two points here, out of the nine and i'm going to cover, I want to pause for just a moment, are there any questions and comments on these first two Hillary did you see anything in the chat.
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ExitCertified: No so far no questions or comments.
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Ken Krueger: Okay, so folks as I go through these i'm going to pause every two points, as I go through, and so, if you have any questions feel free to put them in there, Hillary will make sure that I get to get them relayed to me.
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Ken Krueger: alright.
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Ken Krueger: The first two are pretty simple.
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Ken Krueger: The next two are going to be more controversial because almost everybody falls into this trap so number three is managing infrastructure through a central team of some form or fashion.
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Ken Krueger: cloud architecture is tricky it's best to leave it to the experts, we have a small group of experts and so we're going to let them set everything up.
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Ken Krueger: Most of the teams are supposed to just send the requirements to the central infrastructure team, and then they wait until that overworked central team is able to produce everything and get back to them.
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Ken Krueger: Sometimes this is called a managed services organization Sometimes this is called a cloud excellence team, except that what I am describing now is neither of those.
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Ken Krueger: I had some students about six months ago they described this exact situation they said that they they had to wait for their central team to produce the cloud formation templates, this is an Amazon situation so.
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Ken Krueger: cloud formation templates for us to create everything but they weren't allowed to create their own.
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Ken Krueger: They had to wait until the centralized team created them and then send it to them and then they could run.
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Ken Krueger: And so did wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and when they get something, it would have a problem with it and they'd have to document what the problem was and send it back.
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Ken Krueger: So it got to the point that they just decided to create the cloud formation templates incentive to this overworked central team and say this is what you want, this is what you want to give us, could you please give it back.
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Ken Krueger: Okay, but it would still take weeks for that overworked central team to get to the point that they could actually respond.
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Ken Krueger: Alright, so what's the problem with managing your infrastructure through one overworked central team.
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Ken Krueger: One of the topics I used to teach a lot was agile software development and scrum master training and things like that anytime that you have cross team dependencies it kills agility anytime that a team has to stop and wait or an individual.
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Ken Krueger: has to stop and wait for something else or someone else it kills the agility we need all of the resources on our team to do what we need to do.
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Ken Krueger: Also anytime you have a manual process it simply does not scale that central team only has a certain number of people on it working as fast as they can.
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Ken Krueger: They just don't scale, they just don't scale and infrastructure provisioning can be automated in any of the cloud environments aws azure Google Oracle Ali Baba they can all digital ocean, everything can be automated by API calls.
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Ken Krueger: So, instead, what we want to do is, we want to shift our thinking, first of all infrastructure as code can be used as the mechanism by which we build our infrastructure but.
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Ken Krueger: A more subtle change is the adoption of a guardrail philosophy versus a roadblock philosophy this example that I was just telling you about a moment ago.
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Ken Krueger: They wanted to achieve a good architectural result and the mechanism that they use to do it was a roadblock approach let's have the one group.
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Ken Krueger: do everything and everybody waits for that we have to wait, while we go through the roadblock a better philosophy is the guardrail approach the guardrail approach is where the centralized team establishes a safe environment.
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Ken Krueger: A safe environment that the development teams can work in without without risk that they'll really ever encounter any significant danger.
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Ken Krueger: And when you establish a guardrail approach your absolute you're at you're you're able to actually.
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Ken Krueger: Make the entire organization scale because everybody can work more freely and a good example of that is the picture of a classic playground like you see right here.
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Ken Krueger: What you see here is a safe environment there's no risk these kids are not at risk of serious injury, because we have prepared a safe environment for them to play.
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Ken Krueger: As a couple things I want you to notice about this picture, first of all look over here on the right, see the parents.
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Ken Krueger: they're not paying attention to the kids they're having their own discussion.
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Ken Krueger: They are not managing the kids activities in the kids are not going to the parents can say, can I go on the slide now can I go on the swing set now.
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Ken Krueger: They are free to do their own activities in this safe environment and the parents know that it's safe so they're relaxed enough to turn their back and not pay attention to what the kids are doing Okay, but this is a safe environment take a look at this little guy right here.
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Ken Krueger: This little guy is experimenting with newton's laws of gravity right now he is experimenting he's learning he's pushing the boundaries, he is representative of a.
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Ken Krueger: highly motivated development team who wants to try new technologies, he wants to try new things, to see if they can do things in a better way.
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Ken Krueger: But he's still in a safe environment if he slips and falls that green carpet thing is going to keep him from being seriously hurt to be see this Okay, so this is what we want this is where we want to work, we want to work in a safe environment.
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Ken Krueger: Okay.
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Ken Krueger: All right now, this next one is also going to be a little controversial tues this is number four, this is managing security through a central team this happens very, very frequently.
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Ken Krueger: After all, cloud security is very tricky is best left to the experts, of course, the X words the experts are overworked, but we still want to leave things to the experts.
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Ken Krueger: We want to create nice consistent security controls and the only way that we can think of to do that is to have one team set up those rules.
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Ken Krueger: Or we might have compliance regulations we might be under hipaa or pci or fed ramp or who knows what that it's going to restrict exactly what we can do.
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Ken Krueger: And the only way that we can think of enforcing that is having a central team enforce all the security rules, this is sometimes known as a managed services organization, however, this what i'm describing here is not a managed services organization as an example of this, I had a student.
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Ken Krueger: Two months ago.
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Ken Krueger: She was in one of my aws security classes and we were talking about this very phenomenon, she raised her hand she said yeah just it just took us four weeks to set up a web hook, to set up one of our devops chained.
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Ken Krueger: I said four weeks, why did take four weeks, well, we had to do just what you described here, we had to send a request to the central team, and then we had to wait, we had to wait and we had to wait.
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Ken Krueger: Now, for those of you who don't know a web hook doesn't take four weeks to set up, it takes 10 minutes to set up and it didn't take the central team that long it took the central team four weeks to get to this work, item, so that they could produce it in the meantime.
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Ken Krueger: Our development team is sitting there waiting for this to happen Okay, and of course why.
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Ken Krueger: They were trying to set up a devops pipeline here.
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Ken Krueger: So, in order to they're setting up the devops pipeline in order to move more quickly and be more agile, but they have to wait in order to get the things set up it's so ironic okay.
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Ken Krueger: So a couple things to realize here cross team dependencies kill agility and security, whatever you do with security, it should never rely on a manual process because manual processes introduce errors and it doesn't scale.
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Ken Krueger: This is sound familiar.
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Ken Krueger: Is anybody getting a deja vu at this point.
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Ken Krueger: Did I just say something like this back up just a second here.
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Ken Krueger: yeah I just said this like three slides back I said cross team dependencies kill agility manual processes don't scale.
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Ken Krueger: In this case I was talking about a centralized architecture development team.
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Ken Krueger: In this case, i'm talking about a centralized security team people come up with all kinds of centralized teams and all kinds of roadblocks to try to slow themselves down sometimes it's the network team sometimes it's the production support team sometimes it's the.
00:24:21.630 --> 00:24:34.410
Ken Krueger: The the the database team, but all of these have the same thing in common they're all examples of roadblocks not guardrails Okay, so we want guardrails not roadblocks.
00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:48.510
Ken Krueger: When it comes to security controls we all want good security controls, the challenge is how we get there, do you get there by making everything a roadblock or, can you imagine.
00:24:49.110 --> 00:24:59.730
Ken Krueger: A nice safe guardrail environment think back to the playground, the playground has a fence around it a little toddler can't go running out into the road and and.
00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:06.870
Ken Krueger: and have an accident, because the environment keeps that from happening, so if we can engineer our environment, so that doesn't happen.
00:25:08.190 --> 00:25:17.340
Ken Krueger: We have achieved the objective without the roadblocks Okay, and there are ways that we can do this, one of the things you can do is you can safely delegate permission management.
00:25:18.120 --> 00:25:24.900
Ken Krueger: folks for the rest of this week i'm teaching a three day Amazon security engineering course, this is one of the things we talked about one day.
00:25:25.590 --> 00:25:37.260
Ken Krueger: And every time I go through this when when students see how you can do this and Amazon was like Oh, I had no idea I had no idea that you could do this, you can actually get rid of a centralized team and get rid of the roadblock is like yeah too easy.
00:25:38.130 --> 00:25:48.210
Ken Krueger: Okay, you can also automate your security controls, so that when something unexpected happens, you are able to recognize it and remediate it.
00:25:48.690 --> 00:26:01.620
Ken Krueger: So this is the lifeguard mom think of a lifeguard at a pool the lifeguard is just sitting there and only when something unusual happens does a lifeguard jump in and in and in and save some unusual situation.
00:26:03.540 --> 00:26:10.110
Ken Krueger: Both of the last two items that have gone through illustrate something that I kind of informally call the approval trap.
00:26:10.620 --> 00:26:15.960
Ken Krueger: I thought about writing an article on this, but I can't quite get 500 words out of this, but basically.
00:26:16.590 --> 00:26:26.790
Ken Krueger: Any workflow which relies on a third party to issue approval before proceeding is an example of the approval trap I don't care if you're talking about.
00:26:27.240 --> 00:26:39.300
Ken Krueger: Making a change to your House and you have to get a permit from the local county or building board or if you're talking about some of the situations that you've done here, and any of these things yield.
00:26:40.620 --> 00:26:49.770
Ken Krueger: A classic bottleneck it doesn't scale, it introduces blocking delays and it kills agility So if you really want to have an agile organization.
00:26:50.250 --> 00:27:00.390
Ken Krueger: You have to challenge yourself into thinking about how can I get rid of these things anytime that somebody is is waiting for somebody else that's what what's happening here solution.
00:27:02.310 --> 00:27:11.700
Ken Krueger: always think in terms of can I achieve the same goal with a guardrail approach versus a roadblock approach.
00:27:12.030 --> 00:27:23.010
Ken Krueger: Can I establish preventative controls that keep people from building something or doing something that would be totally that would be dangerous okay.
00:27:23.910 --> 00:27:35.970
Ken Krueger: And if I can't maybe there's a way that I can produce something that will automatically detect when somebody breaks the rules and automatically remediate.
00:27:36.690 --> 00:27:47.190
Ken Krueger: Again, so I have a nice guardrail type of environment, so this is automated it scales it's agile and this is going to allow you to get through the transformation.
00:27:47.700 --> 00:28:01.140
Ken Krueger: That most folks are looking for folks, are there any questions on the pitfalls of managing either infrastructure or security through a central team Hillary were there any questions that came in.
00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:16.350
ExitCertified: There was just the one that came in sure and let's see, is it a good assumption that the microsoft's the curious cord click to run is a great option for partners to manage clients Microsoft CSP business.
00:28:17.070 --> 00:28:29.550
Ken Krueger: I i'm not familiar with that product, so I don't know, one of the one of my limitations is I teach on the aws side so i'm familiar with the Microsoft azure cloud, but I don't know enough of that product and now.
00:28:30.540 --> 00:28:42.060
Ken Krueger: If you email me later I can try to answer that question, maybe Hillary you could send a chat my email over to them in case they lost it because, if I don't know i'll find somebody else who does.
00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:46.890
Ken Krueger: That was added Hillary That was the only one.
00:28:47.940 --> 00:28:49.140
ExitCertified: That was the only one that came in said.
00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:50.520
Ken Krueger: Okay, all right.
00:28:52.260 --> 00:28:53.490
Ken Krueger: So two more here.
00:28:55.050 --> 00:28:58.950
Ken Krueger: Relying on existing manual processes, sometimes it's inevitable.
00:28:59.460 --> 00:29:07.650
Ken Krueger: That an organization before they go to the cloud they have certain processes that they have developed over time and they just keep them and a lot of times their manual.
00:29:08.520 --> 00:29:16.110
Ken Krueger: For example, the way we do a production deployment is done manually by a trusted administrator I gotta get rid of that one.
00:29:16.950 --> 00:29:21.270
Ken Krueger: Maybe the way we set up new environments has to be done manually by an administrator.
00:29:21.900 --> 00:29:30.600
Ken Krueger: If there's a bug in the code developers have to figure out what the problem is by reading through the logs month a manual process to read through logs.
00:29:31.590 --> 00:29:38.430
Ken Krueger: When we set up something and we're trying to discover if we have introduced any security flaws will hire an external.
00:29:38.910 --> 00:29:43.680
Ken Krueger: Security auditor to come in and take a look at everything that we're doing and tell us how we did.
00:29:44.280 --> 00:29:52.080
Ken Krueger: And that audit will take two or three weeks and they'll give us a report and we won't know if we are running insecure until after we get that report.
00:29:52.650 --> 00:30:02.670
Ken Krueger: And if we do have a security breach of some type we will do a post mortem and we will manually take a look at what happened to try to figure out what happened, the key word with all of this.
00:30:04.770 --> 00:30:10.470
Ken Krueger: is either on manual processes now you probably know exactly what i'm going to say on the next slide.
00:30:11.100 --> 00:30:20.910
Ken Krueger: i'm going to say something about how manual processes introduce a bunch of errors and that we should do automated processes instead I don't even need to show you the next slide but let's go ahead and do it.
00:30:21.540 --> 00:30:37.860
Ken Krueger: So we need to realize that cloud platforms are all API based whether you're doing azure or Google or anybody else, everything is an API call that means everything is programmable.
00:30:39.540 --> 00:30:42.060
Ken Krueger: And anytime that you have a manual process.
00:30:42.360 --> 00:30:45.630
Ken Krueger: It will introduce inconsistency, it is inevitable.
00:30:46.950 --> 00:30:54.720
Ken Krueger: And manual processes don't scale and i've already told you that cross team dependencies kill kill agility so we already know that.
00:30:55.770 --> 00:31:04.470
Ken Krueger: And you probably also know, instead, what some of the solutions are we should embrace automation Okay, and what type of automation can we embrace here.
00:31:05.490 --> 00:31:15.540
Ken Krueger: One is the concept of infrastructure is code, this is a concept that all of the cloud environments support infrastructure is code for those of you who haven't heard of it.
00:31:16.590 --> 00:31:23.340
Ken Krueger: is basically the way that you can write some code or some template to kind of describe what it is that you're building.
00:31:23.820 --> 00:31:30.090
Ken Krueger: And then you basically feed it to the cloud environment and it builds it for you in a nice consistent way.
00:31:30.630 --> 00:31:37.200
Ken Krueger: And the template that you're building can be checked into source control, it can be managed, just like source code, because it is OK.
00:31:37.890 --> 00:31:50.460
Ken Krueger: You can also utilize continuous continuous integration and continuous delivery to basically try to to automate our bills and tests and infrastructure provisioning and deployment.
00:31:52.110 --> 00:31:54.930
Ken Krueger: If it comes to system configuration.
00:31:56.070 --> 00:32:06.330
Ken Krueger: The old way is administrator does an ssh connection into some vm someplace and and manually changes something so we don't have to do that anymore we've got.
00:32:07.080 --> 00:32:16.080
Ken Krueger: chef and puppet and salt stack and answer will probably have most of the folks who come through my class to answer is probably the one that's most widely used.
00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:25.650
Ken Krueger: Another alternative to the automated system configuration is an approach that's becoming more common in the cloud era which is.
00:32:27.810 --> 00:32:39.990
Ken Krueger: immutable infrastructure, so if I have an easy to instance let's say an aws and I want to reconfigure it or I want to patch the operating system or something like that I don't instead I throw it out and I create a replacement.
00:32:40.980 --> 00:32:51.000
Ken Krueger: In fact that's one of the things they do that's that's that's something that netflix did a while back is like you're not you're not allowed to run something into production environment more than 30 days.
00:32:51.450 --> 00:32:59.670
Ken Krueger: For more than 30 days, you have to delete it and recreate it with the latest my latest operating system latest patches, so there is no system configuration, everything is disposable.
00:33:00.750 --> 00:33:01.020
Ken Krueger: Okay.
00:33:03.030 --> 00:33:13.980
Ken Krueger: Another buzzword that is new in the IT industry is this concept of observe ability so observe ability is basically collecting actionable intelligence on our application last run.
00:33:14.790 --> 00:33:21.150
Ken Krueger: This is collecting logs this is collecting metrics this is collecting traces this is collecting any actual information that I can.
00:33:22.230 --> 00:33:30.570
Ken Krueger: I will want to run this through some type of automated log analysis, so I should be able to easily say what the what the.
00:33:30.930 --> 00:33:45.030
Ken Krueger: it'll say it's a web application, what are the top five slowest parts of the Web application, what are the top five most occurring errors that I encounter and we should also have automated metric collections and alarms so if things.
00:33:46.200 --> 00:33:56.880
Ken Krueger: exceed our threshold, we should at minimum know about it through an email, but in the spirit of automation and remediation, we should also have an automated way to correct the problem.
00:33:57.930 --> 00:34:00.720
Ken Krueger: Which is typically a little bit more difficult to imagine.
00:34:02.370 --> 00:34:02.850
Ken Krueger: Okay.
00:34:04.380 --> 00:34:05.100
Ken Krueger: Number six.
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:13.620
Ken Krueger: let's keep our Organizational Structure exactly the way that it is now remember the title of this presentation.
00:34:14.790 --> 00:34:17.280
Ken Krueger: is how to fail at cloud transformation.
00:34:18.390 --> 00:34:28.410
Ken Krueger: And remember the first principle, I told you we're not just doing this for a technical exercise we're not just going to aws or Microsoft or whatever as a technical means to an end.
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:45.780
Ken Krueger: we're trying to drive process transformation and organizational transformation, so that we can get product and service transformation, we can't get organizational transformation, if you have committed to keeping your organization exactly the way it is you just can't okay.
00:34:47.190 --> 00:34:52.020
Ken Krueger: Now one thing we used to see a lot more, but thankfully people have gotten away from this is.
00:34:52.800 --> 00:35:04.170
Ken Krueger: The way folks would organize teams, they would organize teams by technical disciplines so you'd have your database administrators in one team you'd have your network administrators in one team your security analysts and one team.
00:35:06.600 --> 00:35:13.680
Ken Krueger: And this leads to something that we've already seen a centralized security team a centralized infrastructure team decentralized network team.
00:35:14.430 --> 00:35:22.350
Ken Krueger: And we've seen what happens is, we have to send a request to those folks and we have to wait till they do it where we're waiting in their manual processes okay.
00:35:25.290 --> 00:35:33.090
Ken Krueger: Now there is consequence to an organizational structure any organizational structure will lead to certain organizational results.
00:35:33.540 --> 00:35:39.240
Ken Krueger: And there's no good or bad organizational structures it's just a matter of what result will you achieve.
00:35:40.080 --> 00:35:45.990
Ken Krueger: So cross team communications kill agility you know that guardrails keep team state safe.
00:35:46.560 --> 00:35:56.400
Ken Krueger: But teams that are aligned around a business outcome achieve the business outcome when you align teams around a technical discipline.
00:35:56.970 --> 00:36:05.700
Ken Krueger: You get excellence in that technical discipline, if I have a group of database administrators who just focus on administering Oracle databases.
00:36:06.180 --> 00:36:17.070
Ken Krueger: They become experts at it and the database administration will be the best in class, but we might not achieve our business objective, on the other hand.
00:36:17.670 --> 00:36:28.830
Ken Krueger: If we organize a team around achieving a business outcome we might not have the best database administration or network efficiency or whatever it is that we're measuring but.
00:36:29.580 --> 00:36:40.950
Ken Krueger: If we're rewarding people towards a business outcome you're going to get striving to that business outcome okay it's just an inevitable consequence of the way you structure anything.
00:36:42.390 --> 00:36:52.200
Ken Krueger: So, nowadays, what we see more, and this is a good idea is aligning teams around ownership of some business outcome this leads to cross.
00:36:52.740 --> 00:37:00.930
Ken Krueger: Cross skilled teams, where you have a mixture of skills on any given team, this is also something that Angeles kind of preach.
00:37:01.800 --> 00:37:12.810
Ken Krueger: And this is also leading to the concept of devops now when a lot of people think of devops they think of Oh, this is an automation pipeline to build and test and deploy stuff into production that's a little bit more than that.
00:37:13.230 --> 00:37:26.280
Ken Krueger: It is the coming together of multiple disciplines in either a common team, or common camaraderie of some form or fashion, so that we achieve, whatever our common goal is okay.
00:37:27.600 --> 00:37:29.130
Ken Krueger: breaking down the barriers.
00:37:30.630 --> 00:37:40.440
Ken Krueger: Alright, so those are the last to rely on existing manual processes and keeping the organizational structure unchanged, those are good ways to fail.
00:37:41.550 --> 00:37:43.380
Ken Krueger: Hillary did you see any messages come in.
00:37:44.130 --> 00:37:45.330
ExitCertified: No, no question.
00:37:45.930 --> 00:37:47.730
Ken Krueger: Okay everybody's quiet today.
00:37:47.790 --> 00:37:50.430
Ken Krueger: that's fine alright that's good.
00:37:52.530 --> 00:37:54.060
Ken Krueger: All right, couple more to think about.
00:37:55.350 --> 00:38:01.110
Ken Krueger: It we're going to keep the organizational structure, the same why don't we keep the or the processes, the same.
00:38:01.740 --> 00:38:11.070
Ken Krueger: Why should we change the way we do budgeting and financial management, why should we change what the program management office is doing, why do we change the way we deploy to production.
00:38:12.750 --> 00:38:26.100
Ken Krueger: This this last one, this is, this is a great story I got to tell you about I know of a company before they went to cloud, this is a company if I mentioned the name everybody has heard of this company, they are one of the top destinations on the Internet.
00:38:27.180 --> 00:38:32.580
Ken Krueger: They had a state of the art production, environment and they had a fixed number five.
00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:42.660
Ken Krueger: Of what they call production look alike environments, they were built with the same hardware and capacity as the as the configuration as the production environment.
00:38:43.500 --> 00:38:49.860
Ken Krueger: The reason they had five is they wanted all the teams to test their software out in these test environments.
00:38:50.190 --> 00:38:59.640
Ken Krueger: and make sure that there are absolutely no snafu before they went into the production environment, this was a while back is like 10 years ago, or something like that, and why did they choose five.
00:39:00.660 --> 00:39:10.350
Ken Krueger: The reason I choose the just five is because they have multiple teams, they had 20 or 30 different teams that needed to use these environments, but the problem is.
00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:22.680
Ken Krueger: You would they didn't necessarily have five teams that needed to use these environments just five teams that need to use this these environments sometimes they had eight teams need the environment, sometimes they had to.
00:39:23.610 --> 00:39:28.440
Ken Krueger: Okay, because of the way they did things the usage of the Environment had to be mutually exclusive.
00:39:29.220 --> 00:39:39.120
Ken Krueger: Okay, so what happened is, if you had to reserve the project management of the product managers had to reserve the usage of these environments for a week, at a time.
00:39:39.600 --> 00:39:45.420
Ken Krueger: So what would happen on the week when eight teams needed to go to production, but there's only five, you would have fighting.
00:39:46.110 --> 00:39:50.220
Ken Krueger: Okay, now I don't mean physical findings or anything like that, but you would have.
00:39:50.850 --> 00:40:00.120
Ken Krueger: These project managers are compensated for getting projects done on time and on budget, and if they can't get into that test environment right now.
00:40:01.020 --> 00:40:11.340
Ken Krueger: The project is is is off Okay, and that affects their compensation, so they fight with the other project managers who are rewarded the same way same way it's a zero sum game.
00:40:12.120 --> 00:40:22.290
Ken Krueger: Okay, and if I would get ugly and it would get escalated up the org org chart and sometimes the cto would have to decide which project should go first okay.
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:30.120
Ken Krueger: So to solve the problem they came up with a grand process, it was almost like a piece of Westphalia.
00:40:30.630 --> 00:40:37.920
Ken Krueger: Where they got all the warring parties together and they came up with a peace treaty that basically would bring peace to the land.
00:40:38.220 --> 00:40:44.010
Ken Krueger: And whenever we have conflicts that like this we're going to have a nice orderly way to do resolve it.
00:40:44.760 --> 00:40:56.760
Ken Krueger: And that was great it solves so many problems and they got used to working that way and we didn't have warring we didn't have wars anymore okay sounded like a great idea wonder what happens when you go to the cloud.
00:40:58.590 --> 00:41:09.630
Ken Krueger: A couple things happen when we go to the cloud the on the consumption bottle is completely different in the cloud environment, we have an on demand environment.
00:41:10.020 --> 00:41:29.340
Ken Krueger: We can create resources anytime that we want and we can dispose of them on demand this company that i'm talking about when they went to the cloud they took their cherished process with them and guess what when it came time to to create production test environments, they created five.
00:41:30.810 --> 00:41:32.160
Ken Krueger: test environments.
00:41:33.360 --> 00:41:41.430
Ken Krueger: Why did you create five test environments, you can create an unlimited number of environments whenever you need them and get rid of them whenever you need them.
00:41:42.060 --> 00:41:50.700
Ken Krueger: But the reason they created five is because they were used to that and their whole piece of Westphalia peace treaty that they had this process that process that they developed.
00:41:51.030 --> 00:41:59.490
Ken Krueger: Basically, was in embedded on the idea that we have this fixed number of environments, so what i'm saying is get rid of it, you don't need that process anymore.
00:41:59.910 --> 00:42:11.610
Ken Krueger: that whole process was based on the idea of limited resources now you're in an environment where you have unlimited resources and disposable resources, the cloud is inherently flexible.
00:42:12.840 --> 00:42:23.910
Ken Krueger: Okay, so embrace the on demand nature of the cloud you don't need to bring this fixed asset thinking with you, and you can also embrace automation create the environment when you need it.
00:42:24.390 --> 00:42:31.470
Ken Krueger: delete it when you're done with it and, ironically, it reduces your spend it increases your agility and speed and reduces your spend.
00:42:33.750 --> 00:42:34.170
Ken Krueger: Okay.
00:42:35.580 --> 00:42:49.410
Ken Krueger: This next one, it will go really quick I had one student once and when when they announced what they were working on, they said yeah we have a new cto this person has a lot of energy and they want us to adopt all of these things.
00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:55.350
Ken Krueger: And does anybody want to take a guess you know can anyone.
00:42:56.430 --> 00:43:03.930
Ken Krueger: Can anybody guess what happens when you try to instantly transform an organization with all of these things all at the same time.
00:43:05.340 --> 00:43:18.000
Ken Krueger: Okay it's a couple immutable truths about you know reality that we have to understand, first of all, we like to think that we are flexible and dynamic people but we're not we're not people hate change.
00:43:19.020 --> 00:43:35.010
Ken Krueger: People hate change there's different tolerances for change, but basically people don't like their whole lives up ended we just don't like it, but we are good at small incremental improvements and progressive adaptation we're actually as a species we're kind of adapted to that.
00:43:36.930 --> 00:43:44.820
Ken Krueger: So instead of trying to transform overnight just plan on a slow steady progression to the cloud.
00:43:45.870 --> 00:43:55.800
Ken Krueger: Okay, so the last two keeping the business processes unchanged and you're trying to instantly transform the organization Hillary were there any comments on this.
00:43:57.150 --> 00:44:06.690
ExitCertified: um there was one that came in So how do you map the on premise mindset unchanged versus cloud mindset with agility and innovation.
00:44:07.470 --> 00:44:08.370
Ken Krueger: And you map it.
00:44:09.870 --> 00:44:16.620
ExitCertified: Yes, how do you map the on premise mindset unchanged versus cloud mindset with agility and innovation.
00:44:17.220 --> 00:44:22.920
Ken Krueger: i'm not sure i'm not sure i'm not sure it maps I think it's something where you know we have to.
00:44:23.460 --> 00:44:33.720
Ken Krueger: We have to stop, we have to stop thinking one way and start thinking another way and that's always The challenge is changing your thinking, because people hate change.
00:44:34.200 --> 00:44:46.590
Ken Krueger: And one thing that's very, very difficult to do, especially you know once you're past the age of 23 I think is actually changing your mind about something is very, very difficult to do so i'm not sure that I have a.
00:44:48.270 --> 00:44:56.700
Ken Krueger: lot of good advice about how to do that, other than we just need to realize the truth that we're in a very, very different environment with very, very different constraints.
00:44:57.210 --> 00:45:08.550
Ken Krueger: that are different from what we're used to, and when we realize that the underlying nature of reality is different than we can say okay well some of the cherished things that i'm used to doing.
00:45:08.940 --> 00:45:16.950
Ken Krueger: don't really apply anymore, because they were made for a different world they're made for a different set of constraints, so they don't apply.
00:45:17.790 --> 00:45:27.960
Ken Krueger: But this is very, very difficult to do i'm not gonna lie it's very, very difficult, I mean try changing your mind about anything any deeply held belief that you have or anything you're used to do.
00:45:28.380 --> 00:45:41.220
Ken Krueger: It could be something simple like the way you drive to work in the morning it's very, very difficult to do that i'm not sure I answered the question but that's that's the best I can do on that if you if you send me an email, I can I can try to elaborate on that a little bit more.
00:45:43.530 --> 00:45:43.890
Ken Krueger: Okay.
00:45:45.300 --> 00:45:49.260
Ken Krueger: couple of last things here, this is the last one I tried to get 10.
00:45:50.700 --> 00:45:54.690
Ken Krueger: ways to fail at cloud transformation, but I can only think of nine so this one was quit.
00:45:55.560 --> 00:46:04.890
Ken Krueger: So this one actually didn't come from a student this actually came from a cocktail party so back around the holidays i'm at a holiday party and I don't know many of the people at the party and i'm kind of.
00:46:05.460 --> 00:46:13.230
Ken Krueger: i'm kind of standing against the wall with you know cocktail in one hand one hand and I strike up a conversation with the person next to me, and so, what do you do it says.
00:46:13.740 --> 00:46:18.360
Ken Krueger: Oh i'm an IT manager I do you know i'm managing a software development team at X company.
00:46:18.750 --> 00:46:25.560
Ken Krueger: What do you do it's like Oh, I do it training so so what kind of IT training so well, mainly I do Amazon web services train lately.
00:46:26.010 --> 00:46:33.990
Ken Krueger: He was like Oh, we tried to use Amazon web services and we hated it, it was way more expensive than we thought.
00:46:34.440 --> 00:46:47.700
Ken Krueger: And it was a lot harder than we thought, and when we put everything out there, it was like women how what keeps the data what keeps the data safe we just didn't it just didn't make sense for us, and so we went back to what we were doing before.
00:46:50.400 --> 00:46:59.430
Ken Krueger: It was a holiday Party I didn't feel like the pay the guy but I kind of I kind of felt sorry it's like you gave up you you you didn't understand.
00:47:00.390 --> 00:47:10.260
Ken Krueger: That simply running a wordpress you know application or something in the cloud is very, very easy it's the organizational transformation that's difficult.
00:47:11.100 --> 00:47:26.940
Ken Krueger: And you ran into the hard parts Okay, and you didn't really understand that it takes X, it takes time to develop the expertise in time, you could have learned how to drive those costs down that you were so concerned about.
00:47:28.110 --> 00:47:44.790
Ken Krueger: So a better method is to just set your expectations communicate your goals and be patient your first effort might not be a glowing success, in fact, it might be a big failure and that's okay it's okay to fail as i'm going to show you in just a minute.
00:47:47.100 --> 00:47:50.190
Ken Krueger: Okay, now as i've gone through this presentation.
00:47:51.780 --> 00:47:58.770
Ken Krueger: You may have seen that some of the things that i've gone through have really struck a chord with what you experienced.
00:47:59.490 --> 00:48:04.530
Ken Krueger: So others of you may have found as like you know the difficulties that we have that don't really.
00:48:05.430 --> 00:48:15.360
Ken Krueger: Some of them kind of do but they're a little bit different from from what you what you described can so do you have any advice for things that we can take back to our organization.
00:48:15.780 --> 00:48:22.740
Ken Krueger: For how to detect if we're having some type of if we're heading towards a failure, yes, I do here's the things you look for.
00:48:23.250 --> 00:48:35.880
Ken Krueger: Look around and look for manual processes anytime that you see people manually setting up something or manually loading a database or manually checking test results or manually checking the production.
00:48:36.420 --> 00:48:49.440
Ken Krueger: anytime you see that manual processes don't scale and they introduce inconsistency waiting anytime you see one team, or one person waiting for another group to get back to them waiting kills agility.
00:48:50.640 --> 00:49:03.330
Ken Krueger: Fixed asset thinking, the cloud is inherently flexible anytime you see people thinking well there's only one environment and one team can use it at a time know there's an infinite number of environments.
00:49:04.500 --> 00:49:17.100
Ken Krueger: And the lack of transparency, sometimes when you ask people, why are you following this process and they say well we've always followed this process okay well why why why what does the what is the purpose of that process if you can't explain.
00:49:17.580 --> 00:49:28.740
Ken Krueger: What the purpose of a process is or why the organization is organized a certain way, then maybe that process or maybe that part of the organization is something that is something that can change.
00:49:30.270 --> 00:49:43.620
Ken Krueger: last thing I want to do, I want to leave you on a positive note here failure is not the end of the world, so I got a few quotes for you secret of life as a fall seven times to get up eight times.
00:49:44.160 --> 00:49:51.990
Ken Krueger: and ancient Chinese proverb from probably 1000 years ago, you can always count on it good ancient Chinese proverb to kind of simply put it.
00:49:53.040 --> 00:50:04.800
Ken Krueger: Failure is not falling down it's refusing to get up the person I met at the cocktail party that was the person who failed because they refuse to get back on that horse and give it another try okay.
00:50:06.060 --> 00:50:10.440
Ken Krueger: Alright, so don't feel bad about failure it's an opportunity.
00:50:11.490 --> 00:50:20.850
Ken Krueger: So, before I open it up for questions i'm going to turn it back over to Hillary briefly because Hillary wants to to tell you about some promotions that you're running so Hillary.
00:50:21.660 --> 00:50:29.790
ExitCertified: Yes, so we did want to make you guys all aware of our summer promotion, so now until August 29 please use promo code summer 500.
00:50:30.330 --> 00:50:45.480
ExitCertified: Before to receive up to $500 off public training or $500 off per day for private training so to learn more about our summer promotion and to explore some training courses for you all, please visit the link in the chat that i'll be posting soon.
00:50:48.600 --> 00:50:54.450
Ken Krueger: Okay, thank you very much for that i'm just looking through the attendee list to see if I recognize anybody.
00:50:57.000 --> 00:51:09.690
Ken Krueger: don't know that I do okay were there any questions that I could answer and, by the way, if I can't answer then you know feel free to email me later and i'll try to do a better job put my work, my thoughts into words.
00:51:11.100 --> 00:51:13.260
Ken Krueger: Hillary did you see any other questions in the chat.
00:51:14.040 --> 00:51:23.640
ExitCertified: um yes so um as far as whether you'll get the session recording you'll be getting the session recording at the end of the week, however, we won't be sharing this session, slides.
00:51:28.050 --> 00:51:36.720
ExitCertified: Okay, so we have another question that came in by Dave Bush, so what is a good approach to understanding the big picture and then making the specific changes.
00:51:38.430 --> 00:51:39.630
Ken Krueger: understand the big picture.
00:51:43.590 --> 00:51:46.050
Ken Krueger: I think that's definitely something that takes a lot of art.
00:51:47.190 --> 00:51:55.560
Ken Krueger: it's more art than science, I also think that in this kind of dovetails into you know what we do at at access certified is.
00:51:56.100 --> 00:52:09.060
Ken Krueger: Just a lot of good basic training and the fundamentals of you know, different cloud environments, you know, working with Cooper nettie he's working with devops working with all these different technologies docker containers, I think, when you have enough of the.
00:52:11.310 --> 00:52:18.750
Ken Krueger: In order to have the same you know high level vision, we have to have the kind of the similar low level understanding of the basics of the technology.
00:52:19.350 --> 00:52:25.980
Ken Krueger: And so I think if you get into a situation where you have you know 100 people in your it organization.
00:52:26.340 --> 00:52:35.250
Ken Krueger: And 50 6070 of them have gone through enough training so that they understand the nature of how the cloud is different, how everything is on demand that you can automate everything.
00:52:36.180 --> 00:52:50.610
Ken Krueger: And then, when you come out as a leader you try to articulate a vision of where we want to go as an organization your words are easy to be accepted because they mesh with what we've you know what we've heard when we went to training class.
00:52:53.130 --> 00:53:02.550
Ken Krueger: Other than that, the only way to articulate a vision in general is i'll take you back to the example that I gave you earlier about.
00:53:05.490 --> 00:53:15.210
Ken Krueger: That two step project plan that that one team did it was just so elegant so the simpler an illustration to simpler, a plan the simpler, the picture.
00:53:15.630 --> 00:53:25.830
Ken Krueger: it's just something that people can understand and we're doing this now we're not doing this now we're moving this application we're not doing this application we're addressing this concerned we're not addressing this concern.
00:53:26.220 --> 00:53:36.600
Ken Krueger: or moving in this direction we're not going in this direction, anything that you can do to simplify that that articulation I think is is the best thing i'm not sure David if I.
00:53:37.740 --> 00:53:41.790
Ken Krueger: answered your question or not I can, if you send me an email, I can I can try better.
00:53:44.130 --> 00:53:45.570
Ken Krueger: Was there any other question.
00:53:47.100 --> 00:53:48.690
ExitCertified: And that's all I see so far.
00:53:49.530 --> 00:53:50.070
00:53:54.120 --> 00:54:05.130
Ken Krueger: Okay well folks I hope you enjoyed this presentation, thank you very much for attending if you have any other further questions i'll be here for a little bit longer and i'll try to.
00:54:05.880 --> 00:54:13.260
Ken Krueger: answer your questions as best I can, if not you're free to send me an email i'll just go ahead and put my email back in here again.
00:54:18.120 --> 00:54:32.910
Ken Krueger: At tech data.com and if you have any questions, not just about the technology, but you know about the training classes, that we offer and things like that i'll make sure that that question gets to the right people.
00:54:33.750 --> 00:54:37.800
Ken Krueger: Okay, so thank you very much and hope you have a good remainder of your day.
00:54:38.910 --> 00:54:46.290
ExitCertified: Right have a great afternoon everyone that recording will be sent to you all, by the end of the week, so thank you so much for joining have a great afternoon.
00:54:47.820 --> 00:54:48.600
Ken Krueger: All right, take care.